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Sunday, July 7, 2013

Reckless Frenzy and the PvP Divide


Reckless Frenzy, as I think we'll all agree, is overpowered. It's beyond the normal power capability. I don't think there's any question about that. The concern is whether or not it's overpowered to an extent that it compensates for a Buccaneer's lack of other powers or is too far off the charts.

A Revolutionary Power

Reckless Frenzy is different. Other powers vary in capability, and all can be more effective when used skillfully, but classes generally remain on the same baseline level. That is a huge thing for the game. It means that players who have strictly been PvE players can dive into this new realm with friends and be successful. At the same time, elitists can effectively have their matches.

This is something Wizard101 was destined to fail at from the beginning. with staple spells like Tower Shield, Weakness, Satyr, and others, it would have never worked out. But I'll explain more of that later.

Hold Your Breath

Ranked PvP, I believe, is part of what ruined Wizard101's PvP. It drove players to try and use cheap strategies and do anything necessary to win... including exploit glitches. This led to a downward spiral of Jade gear, mastery amulets, and excessive treasure cards. It took the fun right out of PvP, because those that didn't join that crowd failed. That's why I desperately hope Pirate101 gives closer attention to that fact and leaves ranked PvP out of the equation. A matching system is all we need.

The quickest way to ruin a game is to split your audience up into groups that want different things. That's what is beginning to happen to Wizard101. You've got the PvP crowd desiring this, the PvE crowd needing this, and they just don't work together. Tournaments with promises of great tickets that yield mount rewards, cosmetic gear, and furniture are KingsIsle's attempt to attract the PvE crowd. They might have them for a moment, but that doesn't change how people operate, and when PvE players have what they want, they'll make for the hills quicker than you can say Player versus Player.

Why Reckless Frenzy is "Bad News"

The power in itself isn't necessarily a game changer, though I'd argue that the 5% damage should be definite, and unaffected by damage protection or armor. But it's a small change for the worse that could point to future problems. It's different because it's an attempt to bring the class up to par with others. Ratbeard (one of the developers) said that he always wants to buff classes, never "nerf" (reduce the power of) them. That's a problem. You get things like overcompensation with one power... a.k.a. Reckless Frenzy.

What happens is something not visible to the duelists you know and love. See, the elitists have no issue, because they have a better ability to predict how their opponent will act, and minimize the effects of powers like this. But players that are new to PvP? Buccaneers have a distinct advantage. And that turns potential PvPers away. That's a big problem.

As Duelist101 Calls It, the "Ace Card" 

Suppose in Wizard101, you put a level 16 Ice against a level 16 Storm. Easy win for Ice. Spells are limited, so Tower Shield and that 70% Storm Shield will definitely be included, rendering the Storm's powers useless. An experienced PvPer would know that and come prepared, but not anyone new to PvP. And so the divide begins.

Don't like the Wizard101 comparison? Pick any game. Pick hobbies. The bottom line is that something that works for all skill levels will gain a large audience, and that's a good thing. Something that requires you to possess a certain knowledge beforehand is less likely to attract a crowd.

The Split

When you get elitists who can work with powers like this, and new PvPers, who can't, it just doesn't work. It's a divergent effect rather than a stabilizing one, and the idea of that should scare players on both ends. It means that you start to create two groups who want different things, and any relationship in which the two involved work like that, well, you know how that goes...

The fact that skilled PvPers, therefore, defend Reckless Frenzy is most startling. It's their future on trial. Perhaps, though, it's only because they are elitists that they can't see the other side... the one with those of us who aren't as great... my side. Ha!

Fix and Forget

This power needs to be quickly remedied in some way. The best course of action, in my opinion, would be to make that 5% recoil damage definite, so that it ignored protection powers and armor. Then, forget this "We'll fix the class with their newest, improved power" line of thinking. Nerf what needs to be nerfed, and don't try to over correct in one swing.

Conclusion

Speaking of divisions, I'm guessing we aren't all thinking exactly alike here. So tell me, what are your thoughts? Thanks for reading and see you in the Spiral! Credits: Thanks to Eli Stormheart for being a part of the picture with his pirate above.

27 comments:

  1. This method must not stop. You will ruin mine and Dead-Eyed Justin's method. We have never lost a round and dominate the brawl halls.

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    1. The fact that you constantly "dominate" is probably a good indicator that change is needed. ;P

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    2. I agree with PVP...but I wish not to rant, it's to early in the morning to express my opinion...

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  2. Hey! That's me! Also, I had no idea that Reckless Frenzy worked off of armor and other resistances. I am sure that is just a bug, though.

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    1. You want to hear a really bad bug? Right now, it's still working after the Buccaneer dies - now THAT's scary!

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    2. Well, the Bucc is swinging and hitting. The recoil damage kills him and he continues to swing and hit.

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  3. I dunno why, but something about your post really bugs me. I probably shouldn't even respond and just move on with my life, but I want to voice my opinion. Just to point out, I'm not a big PvP'er or do a lot of dueling, but PvP has started to really grind my gears.

    First off, anything PvP wise really irrates me, because, from my experiences in Wizard101, PvP causes have had far too much say in game play one way or another. Take the nerfing (and now wanted limiting) of Guidance in Wizard101 as an example. I thought the orinigal spell was fine and great for PvE. But then PvP'ers had mass heart-attacks and wanted it nerfed. And it was. And now they want it limited like Reshuffle. Really?

    I hate how PvP keeps meddling with how PvE'ers want to use their full potential. It's becoming overbarring.

    What erks me about you post is that I've always found Reckless Frenzy a good power in the Buccaneer's arsenal as they've been lacking in areas in the beginning. I don't mind the ignore Armor power like Mojo Reaver, but PvP concerns have to stop having so much control in PvE. I mean so Buccaneers should nearly kill themselves verses bosses, just so PvP'ers can be happy. I don't think I can agree with that.

    Also I don't like how you jumped to the conclusion that Ratbeard wouldn't "nerf" or adjust the power. Yes, he's stated he prefers to power classes, but if there is a problem with a class, unless he saids "I won't", I'm sure he will make the adjustments to enable better gameplay (either by nerfing the class or empowering the others to counter the overpowered class). Also, up until now, I've seen no major concerns over Reckless Frenzy (from the Message Boards side of things. If it's on Central, my apologizes).

    And who says rank PvP is coming to Pirate101? I don't think it should come at all, but I have seen no indication that it's in the works right now.

    I'll agree with you that I think Ranked PvP played a part in Wizard101's seperation and PvP ruining. I really don't like that atmosphere (kinda what detours me from PvP overall. That and the lack of unique, back and forth strategy)

    In your concern new PvP'ers, I don't know if this is a good way to solve that divide. I can't see a solution to Newbies vs. Experienced Players as PvP is a free-for-all period. That line up is going to happen and I think that's out of KI's control as you can't sort that kinda thing to make it fair.

    I would have to say that new PvP'ers (and I am, like you, not a good/knowledged PvP'er) would need to do some research and understanding before jumping into the fray. Over time, if they work at it, they can better understand PvP or simply walk away and play where they have the most fun.

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    1. PvP will always dictate the game to some extent. The point of this post is to minimize that dictation - to create something that all types of players can agree on. That's essential to maintaining Pirate's current peace and not spiraling into what Wizard has.

      I may not be an extremely skilled PvPer, but I do have experience. I do know how PvP works. I spent a long time listening to other feedback and reading threads on Central about this power, as well as seeing it work in-game. Very rarely do I come out and seriously argue that something is overpowered. I haven't even said a word about Jade gear or Ice with Storm and Fire immunity.

      My conclusion of Ratbeard was based on what he stated, and I specifically used the word "wants" which I intended to use in a way that suggested that this wasn't final, but rather, a strict line of thinking. Even that has a negative impact.

      I think you said you agree with the ignoring armor - and that's really all I'm asking for with this power. We agree on that. But what I am pointing out is how they've got to be careful so that Buccaneers DON'T end up having a hard time with bosses so PvPers are happy. Make things balanced to start with so that everyone sees things from a close perspective, and you don't get the PvP and PvE only groups. I believe I'm trying to prevent what irks you.

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    2. (Same Person) OK. I like how you put it that way. Maybe instead of ignoring armor (as that will lead some Buccaneers to a quick defeat) increase to recoil damage to 10% per swing. I think that's fair. (15 or 20% is a little high to me).

      I would love for less dictation over the game from PvP. If we can establish that, then I COULD POSSIBLY be opened to the idea of more PvP expansions (x shudders x even ranked ...). Course I think Ship PvP was on the rise. We may have to discuss that later.

      Also, in response to your level 16 Ice vs. Storm scenario. Wouldn't you agree that in PvP schools should have some of their own advantages. I mean I feel PvP continually kills that for all schools and classes in both games. It's like everyone has to be generic and have the same this and the same that. If you wanna make any advantages, you have to shape this generic-ness in a different way.
      That's annoying to me, because if you find away to win continually (without being overpowering), PvP has some kind of out cry. Of course, because of the Jade epidemic, this is clumpt with being...overpowered? (can't find the right word lol)

      As for Jade Gear and Ice Immunity, I think Jade Gear is waaaaaay over used. That's a problem of the Community. I don't think Kingsisle ever intended this. Just like they didn't intend such a diverse community. If Jade Gear is to stop, players have to realize it's causing an unenjoyable environment and give it a rest (unlikely but possible). In KI intervines, it could be trouble (removing or nerfing it will cause outcries).

      While Ice can get Immunity, I feel this shouldn't be an option for PvP (in PvE this is kinda awesome, especially in Azteca). However, I don't understand why only to 2 schools. It definitely shows how powerful Ice's defense can be, and how limited they are in their speciality.

      While you can't stop greedy/power-hungery/selfish players, I think most Ice wizards should choose not to use this power (like how Marco Pollo doesn't want anyone to use the power of El Dorado). If I was Ice or had Jade Gear, I wouldn't use it. Even if it got me multiple wins, because I don't want to contribute to making PvP unfun (already is with people making fun of you and bringing you down to win) or being this unfair outlier that won't let others bask in the winner's circle.

      That's not a PvP world I wanna be in or apart of.

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    3. Lol Also I meant Gaurdian Spirit in my first post lol. Sorry for the confusion :P

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    4. The reason people resort to those cheap strategies is because they want to do anything to win.

      The trick with balancing classes or schools is diversity and effectiveness through combinations of spells or powers, not one spell or power.

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    5. Okay, it's to early in the morning for me(considering I just awoke about an hour ago)...however I've need to agree with certain people...PVP has taken a toll on Wizard101 and it's ruining it...for instance...no one can really hatch a pet these days, everything has to be specific because other people are always looking for a PvP pet....and as well the younger wizards cannot get a good pet without first someone helping them...as well, they're influencing PvP with rare attire, etc. that people want, and especially those that cannot PvP loose out on all those rare items...plus people have started hating on schools...and some are trying to reach the top drowning everyone else in shame, sorrow, etc...as well, in Practice PvP, there are "rules" such as no healing wich is not fair considering that the majority of Life spells are healing(BTW Seraph originally healed)...and other schools are now taking out healing jobs and some spells are overpowered like Sirens(luckily they evened it out with Storm Owl, which I don't feel like explaining)...also you forget not a lot of people have crowns, instead they're always asking to have someone gift, and as well the robes in packs are extremeley hard to recieve and the robe in Jade attire has the highest stat and not a lot of people even use it still, they want an attack stat to end things quickly...and so forth...now I'm too tired to continue...

      P.S: what's a PvE?

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    6. PvE is Player vs. Enemy. That is all the fighting and battling you do with computer controled bosses and mobs in regular game play.

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  4. Pirate101 PvP isnt a big part of the game in general. Buccaneers are weak otherwise, however just because the other classes find it unfair, doesn't mean it is fair to nerf Buccaneer's because KI is trying to even the playing field. It is similar to ice in Wizard101. They dominate PvP and the game itself. Nearly impossible to beat them, that is the law of all tanks in games. They start out the game behind every other class and make up for it later on. Like learning french, starts out hard and gets easier the more you learn.The reason my team dominates is because I have a good tag team method, Justin being a privateer, we have good strategy. And Buccaneers have probably the hardest time with bosses do to our little damage, we need other players like privateers, musketeers and swashbucklers to keep us alive do to the fact we arent meant for soloing. Musketeers are a class specific for soloing, not PvP, not group help, not boosts. They are seperate from the 3 main and Witchdoctors because of this. Buccaneers, Swash and Privateers have Blade storm, ripost, pirate, ect. (or can use them)while musketeers get things like burst fire, double tap, ect. This is for the soloing reason. You can't take it out on a certain class specific for teaming. A standard team needs a tank, rouge and healer. Me and Justin have swashbuckler companions that we max out for mass damage. Musketeers just aren't meant for the brawling halls do to the lack of strategy. That is why they design them for musketeers with obstacles everywhere to even it out for people wishing to PvP. Ranked will come and you cannot please everyone, that is just the way it is.

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    1. Ranked is the reason you get cheap strategies. In 1v1, you may be decent now, but wait. I'll be using all 6 Valor's Armor for absorb 30x damage and more. Cheap strategies will dominate. That's why we leave it out.

      As for Buccs, even some Buccaneers agree that it's overpowered. Buccs do great base damage and have the epics to back that up. But my main point was that even if this is acceptable, it starts a trend that should be avoided... for everyone's sake. If Buccaneers are underpowered, boost some of their other talents a tiny bit, but don't expect to turn them around with a single update.

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    2. (Same Person as above again). Yeah, leaving one item or spell or power to turn everything around really isn't a good idea. That another problem with Wizard101 as it leaves everything to one item (Jade Gear, Waterworks Gear, etc.)

      I'm not entirely sure if it's only Ranked PvP that causes those cheap strategies (but I'll agree with you that, from all this status stuff, it plays a role).

      Pirate101 certainly doesn't need Ranked PvP, but a Matching System (as you said), would be nice. Not only that, but a badges where if you win X amount of matches, you get a badge (Win 15 PvP Matches get Coporal Badge etc). That's pretty fair. Maybe even some rewards. Like Pirate101's PvP turns into an overall TOurney (not four rounds of scheduled fighting, just gaining a prize after a fight. Everyone's a winner then!)

      My brother (whose pretty set in Buccaneers) and I were talking about how to make Reckless Frenzy better. Between your idea of ignoring armor and my idea of increasing it to 10%, we came up with a 3rd option.

      When Reckless Frenzy is activated, it ends if you miss. Period. If the target you are attacking dies, Reckless Frenzy ends. You may still recieve Bladestorm, but Reckless Frenzy will NOT activate after. I think this is the best option overall.

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    3. Another interesting thing about Wizard101 PvP is that rank is never created or destroyed (:P), only transferred. To gain rank for one person is to take it from another.

      The tournament system is revolutionary in that way - everyone comes out positive. The winners just come out MORE positive. I still see cheap strategies in tourneys, though. Whether that's because the new system has no effect or because people are just so used to using those types of strategies, I'm not sure.

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  5. The funny part is I dont even have it yet, I am not a 65 and only a 52 and still rule the halls. I can honestly say me and Justin have PvPed four 65s and still won. It all depends on strategy, PvP isnt too big of the game but you cant nerf things when there is nothing to get out of it. It is practice atm and so nothing is being lost other than saying "Blue Won" it is all fun. You can't say when Ship vs Ship comes out that "OH HE HAS AN AQUILA GALLEON WITH ALL THE BEST STATS, GOING AGAINST MY MARLEYBONE GALLEON" "THIS IS UNFAIR WE MUST GET RID OF ALL AQUILA SHIPS" If it is part of the game, KI clearly had reasoning and justification on why they included it. If it was a problem people would have said something in test realm of Aquila and Marleybone. That is how we got input on Siren and Dr. Von. Having a rant this late into the update is pointless since I know a lot of people that say it is fair due to buccaneer's low stats otherwise. This is just my opinion that every class will get their time to shine and Aquila is rulled by the axe swinging brutes.

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    1. That just proves my point - you're good. You know what you're doing. Not everyone does. You aren't affected, therefore, but new PvPers are - and that could mean future nerfs or changes to your class and strategy - that's what we're trying to avoid.

      We don't take out something because you win with it - we take someone out because it does well with NO strategy required.

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  6. It can be a great card is used properly, because before I would get beaten a lot in pvp, but now this card helps me win, I like to call it "The Last Resort Card". Because I only ever use it when its that or lose, when all my companions are defeated and I'm outnumbered 3 to 1, because it takes 5% for every hit, I use two leviathan's call powers and it lowers it to where it only takes about 1.2% per hit, and usually allows me to defeat my opponent.

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    1. I just thought about it, but what if they could take out this power and instead add the ability relentless to buccaneers to help them be equal with other classes. Swordroll, opinion?

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    2. Buccaneers don't traditionally have Relentless... I suppose some do, but it's more of a Swashbuckler thing. I think you might be on the right track, but not Relentless. The only class to get a second hit epic so far is Witchdoctors, and they're lacking anyway. Buccaneers rely largely on base power, and Relentless might take that a little too far. It's a possibility, though.

      I was hoping for more of a balance across multiple powers - and it doesn't even have to be fixing old ones. Spread out the above-average power across new ones in the future. Just not all in one.

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  7. What about valors shield? Buccaneers needed this. We till are severely underpowered. And if they give us reckless frenzy we should be getting relentless. Riposte? First strike? Op companions? Think about it... we did need this powerup.

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    1. I agree that Buccaneers need a power increase, but not in this way. It's over-correction in small areas that create the divide. If they had compensated for this with new gear or through the next few powers, it would have been fine.

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  8. K I can proudly say that Reckless Frenzy is NOT at all a power worth removal or downgrade, it isn't OP by any means. I now have it and although good for enemies, in PvP it is almost pointless, the ammount of buffs needed to make decent damage and avoid accuracy is terribly difficult. In general, Swashbucklers will be immune with dodge and that will all be for nothing. In addition, the heath is a real problem, if I can close to full when I use it, it could be anywhere from 250-400 damage to myself per hit since it is by percentage. Since I am yet to find any other serious Buccaneers I will just have to say that I do not find it OP in any means. It sounded scary but it really isn't when you really play it.

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    1. You don't play it without stacked Leviathan's Calls or other powers, though. Then it does 100 damage maybe every other or third time.

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